Curse

Alias_X · Aug 20, 2006, 08:18 PM // 20:18

They own my account, thats why I can't ebay it x_x

Horseman Of War · Aug 20, 2006, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

What you buy when you buy GW (or any MMO) is a CD with software and a license to have access to their servers ( = have an account).
It's like buying a fishing license, or a phone card: you don't actually buy the lake, or the telephone lines, just a right to use them.

that is the most insightful analogy ive ever read on this forum

that pretty much sums it up!

Age · Aug 20, 2006, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

Curse You: That's actually a bit different.
With a single-player video game, you do really buy the game (just like you really do buy, say, a car), but you don't buy the rights to the game. You can't, say, sell the movie rights, or start making and selling copies, just because you've bought Tomb Raider.
But you do in fact own the game and have the right to do whatever you want with it, including hacking & reverse engineering it, as long as you don't redistribute it - the "single user license" thing is wishful thinking on the part of the software companies* and AFAIK they've never even tried to have it upheld in court.

With a MMO it is different. You do in fact own the game there too, but the game can not be played without access to a server - and the server most definitely is not owned by you.

* At present "wishful thinking on the part of the software companies" pretty much sums up EULAs and shrink-wrap licenses wrt single-user offline software; they are not legally binding contracts in most places.

Disclaimer: IANAL.

This is True except this part.

Quote:

But you do in fact own the game and have the right to do whatever you want with it, including hacking & reverse engineering it, as long as you don't redistribute it - the "single user license" thing is wishful thinking on the part of the software companies* and AFAIK they've never even tried to have it upheld in court.

You can't hack into it or reverse engineer it as it is still under it own eula it is when it only becomes abondonware is when you can do this.This when all support for a certian time has passed by.You can though mod the game as much as you want and edit text files.

When it does come to GW though you do own the CD key that comes with and that is an important part of a game without it you can't play.I highly doubt they would ever want to delete someones account if they broke parts of the eula like you said it is not a written and signed contract.You could contact some consumer protection agency to see what they can do if it was deleted.You did invest lots of time into GW in the end you could always sell your used copy of the game for the lose or see if NcSoft will puchase it back they are the Publisher after all.

Alex Weekes · Aug 21, 2006, 02:12 PM // 14:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inde

On a related note, there's an interesting article on EA's (Electronic Art's) Privacy Policy and who has the right to pass along your information (name, address, credit card information) that some of you may want to read. I know there was a question over at GWO for our Eurpoean friends on how the information from the Guild Wars Store is being passed along. Which Gaile answered by posting this link: http://www.plaync.com/us/help/privacy.html But it's something to be aware of, how your personal information is being passed along, for any game that you play.

With regards Guild Wars, the privacy policy is global. This means that it must satisfy the strictest laws on privacy in the world, and those are currently European laws. If the USA was to enact a new law that is stricter than the European laws, then our privacy policy would be updated to satisfy that new law ... globally.

Numa Pompilius · Aug 21, 2006, 02:42 PM // 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

This is True except this part.

You can't hack into it or reverse engineer it as it is still under it own eula it is when it only becomes abondonware is when you can do this.

1) The EULA means nothing at all. What counts is that you own your software, and as its your property you're free to do whatever you want with it, as long as you don't infringe on the intellectual rights. It's like, say, you buy a book. Are you allowed to cut pages from the book? Rearrange the pages? Sell the book?
Of course you are. You're not allowed to sell copies of the book, or sell the movie rights for it, though, because although you own the book, you don't own the intellectual rights.

2) There is no such thing as "abandonware". Computer games are protected by copyright until _70 years after the death of the longest-living person involved in the creation of the software_.
Abandonware sites like the Underdogs etc are pirate sites, filled with pirate software. It's just that the people who actually do own the rights to the software don't care and hasn't requested they remove them from download.

Count to Potato · Aug 21, 2006, 04:45 PM // 16:45

So basically when they ban an account, do you have a right to fight back, or does Anet have legal juristiction to do whatever they want with that account?

Sir Skullcrasher · Aug 21, 2006, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

We bought the right to access ArenaNet's servers.

I agree, we brought the right to use the account on ArenaNet's servers. That is how most MMORPG has in their User Agreement that you don't own the account rather you brought part of their server access.

MooseyFate · Aug 21, 2006, 05:47 PM // 17:47

This is the problem with any game that has no offline component. And it's why I play very very few online only games. NC Soft is being corporate-annoying and just watching their back, but annoying players make them have to do it. Think of it as only semantics. It sucks that you have to worry about this agreement, and the more often they have one, the colder the company seems. But it really doesn't change gameplay any. You had to rely on their servers before to play, and you will still have to going on.

I just fear the trend in games trying to be online only. Then what will happen when these games get old and you can't play for "old times sake". That's important to me. It would be very easy for ANet to set GW up like Diablo, with the ability to make an offline only or online only character. Of course compeditive areas wouldn't work, but the rest would still work. I am mainly PvP, but I'd still like to see the PvE option. Won't happen though.

Mr_eX · Aug 21, 2006, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

We bought the right to access ArenaNet's servers.

QFT.

That said, play by the rules--don't grief, don't scam people, don't use 'sploitz, don't buy/sell in-game items on eBay--and no harm will come to you.

Omega X · Aug 21, 2006, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

1) The EULA means nothing at all. What counts is that you own your software, and as its your property you're free to do whatever you want with it, as long as you don't infringe on the intellectual rights. It's like, say, you buy a book. Are you allowed to cut pages from the book? Rearrange the pages? Sell the book?
Of course you are. You're not allowed to sell copies of the book, or sell the movie rights for it, though, because although you own the book, you don't own the intellectual rights.

That's funny. Very Funny.

Why? Because current EULA's say that you DO NOT own the software. The EULA's and general "contracts" for using modern software/media now days says that you are LICENSED rights to USE the software/media and that you in fact DO NOT own what is on the disc. Which I think was stemmed from the DCMA law. That has also spread to Movies and Music. (Remember DRM? Exactly what it stems from...)

Which basically means that you bought a piece of plastic.

But the EULA in this case is claiming Accounts, which means accounts can't be simply bought or sold by a 3rd Party. But the Box, Books, paper media and CD can be sold on Ebay, but the person/persons would have to buy an account from NC Soft. Which kind of defeats the purpose of selling it in the first place, unless you lost the book or something.

Numa Pompilius · Aug 21, 2006, 06:19 PM // 18:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Count to Potato

So basically when they ban an account, do you have a right to fight back, or does Anet have legal juristiction to do whatever they want with that account?

Well, you can always sue. Whether you actually might win... I don't think that's ever been tested. My gut feeling is that you'd lose.

Sir Skullcrasher · Aug 21, 2006, 07:20 PM // 19:20

So is this why A-Net has the right to ban your account if you do anything illegal?

Numa Pompilius · Aug 21, 2006, 08:35 PM // 20:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omega X

That's funny. Very Funny.

Why? Because current EULA's say that you DO NOT own the software.

Yeah, but this is the take home message: They can write whatever they want in the EULA, it doesn't make it so.

Quote:

Which basically means that you bought a piece of plastic.

But the EULA in this case is claiming Accounts, which means accounts can't be simply bought or sold by a 3rd Party.

Yeah... that bit about not being able to sell the account is a bit hazy. Thanks to Nintendo I think it's safe to say that you're free to sell the CD and the box and the manuals as much as you like. Which is fine for single-player offline games.

But with an MMO you have the account, and things get unclear.

I don't really want to take a guess on what really goes there. I'm not even sure _anyone_ knows.

However, I'd say that if you do sell your account (with email account) and don't rub it in ANets face, they're unlikely to ever find out.

TheUndertaker · Aug 21, 2006, 09:17 PM // 21:17

Actually know one does know yet, b/c the few shrinkwrap cases decided have been decided both ways.

I think a person may have a good argument to rescind their contract and get their money back if GW were to ban and you had just bought the game and hadn't played been able to play a reasonable amount of time. Anet made a good faith agreement to provide us w/ a game and they would violate that by not providing the game. They CAN'T do whatever they want b/c it says so in the EULA.

The EULA agreement cases like I said before have been decided both ways.
However, I think a person could make a good case to not be bound by the EULA because it may be unconscionable (which means procedurally and substantially unfair to one party), and therefore unenforcable.
It is unconscionable b/c:
1. It is a standard adhesion contract. (We had no say so in the terms.)
2. There is a large bargaining power difference. (There is, they have all the power).
3. Terms are hidden or hard to understand. ( No one even reads that crap, and if they did they wouldn't understand it w/o a law degree).

Lastly, it would have to be unfair to us. It is if they can do whatever they want and we have no recourse.

hoyalawya · Aug 21, 2006, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Don't see this point raised yet. Basically, if our accounts get hacked or that there is a hiccup on ANet or NcSoft servers and our inventory or our characters got wiped, we won't have a legal cause of action againt them since we do not own those contents.

Omega X · Aug 21, 2006, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheUndertaker

Actually know one does know yet, b/c the few shrinkwrap cases decided have been decided both ways.

I think a person may have a good argument to rescind their contract and get their money back if GW were to ban and you had just bought the game and hadn't played been able to play a reasonable amount of time. Anet made a good faith agreement to provide us w/ a game and they would violate that by not providing the game. They CAN'T do whatever they want b/c it says so in the EULA.

The EULA agreement cases like I said before have been decided both ways.
However, I think a person could make a good case to not be bound by the EULA because it may be unconscionable (which means procedurally and substantially unfair to one party), and therefore unenforcable.
It is unconscionable b/c:
1. It is a standard adhesion contract. (We had no say so in the terms.)
2. There is a large bargaining power difference. (There is, they have all the power).
3. Terms are hidden or hard to understand. ( No one even reads that crap, and if they did they wouldn't understand it w/o a law degree).

Lastly, it would have to be unfair to us. It is if they can do whatever they want and we have no recourse.

The main reason why EULAs are pretty much garbage and easily debunked in court is because there are Local, State and Federal Laws in place to safeguard citizens from many stipulations that would make them illegal.

They can claim that stronger stipulations are in the EULA because its global, but if the country that the violation happened does not fall within the lines of the laws there, their claim goes out of the window.

And with the popularity of Online Services that water is about to get deeper for companies who think that they can do dirt and never pay for it. So they can either swim with us now or drown from the ignorance.

But I love the EULA controversies. I've seen too many companies revise their EULAs just to have it revised again with users in mind by the heat of lawsuits.

Fungus Amongus · Aug 22, 2006, 01:14 AM // 01:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

But you do in fact own the game and have the right to do whatever you want with it, including hacking & reverse engineering it, as long as you don't redistribute it - the "single user license" thing is wishful thinking on the part of the software companies* and AFAIK they've never even tried to have it upheld in court.

http://www.eff.org/IP/Emulation/Blizzard_v_bnetd/

Key words:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

as long as you don't redistribute it

Age · Aug 22, 2006, 02:28 AM // 02:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius
But you do in fact own the game and have the right to do whatever you want with it, including hacking & reverse engineering it, as long as you don't redistribute it - the "single user license" thing is wishful thinking on the part of the software companies* and AFAIK they've never even tried to have it upheld in court.

What I am saying though is if you did all this and had game problems and needed support they the Puplishers or Devs would want to know the exact problem.When they see it and see that you reversed engineered it you will have lost all support especialy if you registered it.They may even delete your file and it is really hard to a game with out source code.

strcpy · Aug 22, 2006, 06:06 AM // 06:06

EULA's have several issues. There are WAY more than I will list below, but they are some of the major ones. This only applies to the US.

One is the ability to negotiate (refuse). You do not get that until *after* you purchase the software with no ability to return it (opened software). That is an illegal contract - it's like saying "By reading this you agree to <whatever> - you can not do that. You have federal laws protecting this. There have been some amusing cases where unemployeed programmers sue microsoft for 250 dollars for the version of XP included on thier computers. In one case Microsoft was forced to either sale the person liscenses for XP at 5 dollars or refund all 250 dollars. The "reasoning" thier lawyer gave nearly got them fined.

Another is, as was mentioned, many of the consumer protection laws. There are ideas that we hold to be true - they can not be signed away. To a person familiar with software much of the EULA stipulations violate this. Until it goes through the court systems we will never know for sure. Some of this is also state specific - I think EULA's are mostly useless in California due to state laws and circuit court decisions.

Things that do not work - "clever" working around the law. Having you cousin click accept, using software to bypass the EULA, and those things. You are making a Bad Faith type of thing and the courts generally squish you VERY hard (too much of law depends on you respecting it). Famous or rich *may* get away with it - you will not. Abondonware doesn't count either - just that if no one cares or no one knows who owns the rights you will not be bothered.

However, it is not clear if - in good faith - someone who you have hired to manage your IT infrastructure clicks "OK" for the EULA and you violate it. Especially given the shakey ground that EULA's are on in the beginning. But, again, that is VERY different from asking your sister to click "OK" so the contract doesn't apply to you. I would guess that in the above case the person/company you hired to manage your IT is liable - after all that is what you are paying them for.

The DMCA (digital millenium copyright act) also throws some loops in it. Reverse engineering *may* be illegal except in limited educational instances (again, being cute with the courts is a quick way to loose and get the maximum penalty). Again, it hasn't gone through courts so who knows?

Of of the things that occurs is that companies will only prosecute cases they know they can win. So a lot of this stuff my be decades before it is sorted out. Lawyers try and prosecute small cases to build case law and use the stuff they aren't sure about as a giant bat. Basically you get a letter from EA saying they will spend millions unless you comply with XXX regulation and you normally will. Fight it enough and the tend to drop it - don't want the chance of that bat being found unconstitutional. Right now if they think they can win you get the court order - they need the positive case law.

We get them for the same reason dump trucks have the sign on the bak that reads "not responsible for falling objects" (yes, you are - that's one of those "by reading this you agree.." contracts, the law states you are and simply putting up a sign saying you are not doesn't work). The vast majority of people will follow the sign and not think anything more about it. Plus with EULA's not tested in court they *might* end up being binding.

If you ever feel like being a project manager this sorta crap all of a sudden becomes important. Not only do you need to know software development practices but you need this. IMO software is one of the most complicated entities on the planet right now - until a lot of issues are finally worked out you need to have your hands in too many departments. But then, that is what makes it interesting to be one